Friday Morning Seminar - Shared screen with speaker view
Devarati Chakrabarti
Hello, I am unable to connect my microphone. I am joining in from Delhi. I recently finished my M.A. in social anthropology and had read some of your work as part of my coursework in medical anthropology. Looking forward to the session.
Evangelos Kilipiris
Hello Everyone,
Antonio Bullon
Hi all. I’m finishing clinical rounds shortly. I will connect fully soon
Tony V Pham
happy new years !!!
Evangelos Kilipiris
I’m unable to connect to my microphone. I’m joining from Athens Greece. I’m craniofacial surgeon and I’ve finished also my medical anthropology master. I’m very pleased to be part of this discussion.
Aneel Brar
Gung hai fat choi!
Katie Ratzan Peeler
Go Blue!
Tony V Pham
chuc mung Nam moi
Lesley Sharp
Fabulous talk
Aneel Brar
Great talk!
Edward Rohn
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Tony V Pham
awesome !!
Arlene Katz
fantastic talk!
thank you for bringing the lisa stevenson ,s work on the north of our land , to your work in Thailand : fabulous presentation, most interesting kaliedoscope ideas of hybridity, most appreciated,
Aneel Brar
Scott, I’m wondering if in your role as the “embalmer” in the spirit ambulance if you ever had to either embalm the body using the home made embalmer, or if you had to do anything else that challenged your western-doctor-trained ethics? It strikes me that any of these experiences might be an instance of you experiencing local thai hauntalogical ethics
Arlene Katz
Scott, you invite us to be one of the actors in the space between, where possibilities occur, even navigate surprise…
Michael M. J. Fischer
Scott — are there ever changes in the ontological pin— oh I used to think it was the dog I mistreated, but now I know it was really X?
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
What if we take Scott’s Thai generated ideas — in US COVID hospital deaths do patients merge into AI, the digital internalization of self via iPad and the choreography of end of life is riff by nurses and clinicians who allow that — the body spirit is conveyed by the digital at the end
Byron Good
Want to call on Eric, then bk to you, Michael, Aneel…
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
The digital self not a crow perhaps but a 21st C AI self
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Unsatisfactory because no blood clot of the birth self
Paul Brodwin
I am struck by the immense difficulties of translation (or transvaluation) between ethical systems. IN this case the official Kantian based medical bioethics of the US and the lived ethical landscape of these Thai family members and clinicians in the face of death. The civilizational traditions are so different, what is the eventual payoff of trying to render them commensurable? Why not just use the Buddhist terminology (dependent co-origination, karmic consequences, albeit deferred) to interpret your Thai ethnography, and leave it at that?
just to add how helpful your work is to family therapists as we often narrate the ghostly presence of djinn or personal ghosts : look at work of carl sluzki on the presence of absence : a fabulous response to the missing in argentina : who unleashed wide spread grief : their grief process seems related to your ideas of choreography of grief and non living and living?
Katie Ratzan Peeler
Here here. Incredible speaker.
Irv Plotkin
how do these cultural matters impact DNR orders?
Michael Nathan (He/him)
Thinking about the bounds between material and immaterial in US healthcare, I'm reminded of a recent palliative care talk that referenced how critical, in the hospital, attention to ideas of spirit and spirituality are in patient's experience of their medical care. It would suggest that the institutional aspects of care separate the material and immaterial in ways that our patients do not.
Gangsim Eom
@Prof.Stonington, regarding your uptake of Prof.Aulino’s Kaleidoscopic mind, I thought anthropologist Yukiko Koga’s Book “Inheritance of Loss: China, Japan, and the Political Economy of Redemption after Empire” could be an interesting read. Koga uses the Japanese concept of “Awase Kagami (two mirrors arranged at such an angle that you can see your own back)” to capture the refractive structure of intergenerational transmission. The mirrors allows us to see the backside (which is invisible to the self unless using mirrors like hair salon) of us and of our ancestors and the intergenerational indebtedness across national boundaries.
Malavika Reddy
Thanks for this recommendation, Gangsim
Felicity Aulino
Yes, great recommendation, Gangsim!
Arlene Katz
amen. it is all about bringing in the relational; please expand and how you are bringing this into your work in the US
Gangsim Eom
You’re more than welcome Profs.Reddy&Aulino!
Katie Ratzan Peeler
Dr. Stonington, I’m sorry I have to head out a few minutes early. Incredible talk. Going to purchase your book right now!!
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
About 15 Years ago I was involved in two or three major end of life and oncology in Thailand for Thailand and the cosmopolitan discourse was incorporated into every day medical discourse
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Conferences big ones with all Thai docs and nurses with two or three foreigners participating
Edward Rohn
Fascinating conversation. Left my head spinning with new ideas related to my own work. Thank you so much! Thanks to Scott, Felicity, and all the commentators. Thanks to Mary Jo for opening this world for me. Off to my next meeting... rather stay here!
Lance Laird (he/him)
Thanks so much, Scott and Felicity. I look forward to using your work in my teaching and to continuing conversation. Have to leave now.
Virginia Moreira
Thank you so much for this wonderful presentation and discussion!!
Lesley Sharp
I need to leave for another meeting. Scott, again, thank you for a marvelous talk. Lots of food for thought here that translates wonderfully to other end-of-life context.
Sarah Willen
Absolutely terrific presentation — thank you Scott! Thanks too to Felicity and all who’ve raised marvelous questions.
Lissie Wahl-
Often the patient dying from Covid is quite out of it. How I've seen the iPad used is by family members who come together live via Zoom and/ or recordings to express their love, memories of great moments with the dying, sing, express what they miss, their gratitude (in general or in specific instances), etc. - often in incredibly touching ways aimed to convey love and thoughts of joy and bring peace to the dying (who's often been given IV pain and anti-anxiety meds),
Aneel Brar
Thank you very much for a great talk and wonderful comments — I learned a lot!
Michele Nathan
Thank you. Really interesting presentation
Malavika Reddy
Thank you so much Scott. This was such an incredible discussion
Lissie Wahl-
Extraordinary. Thank you.
Ralph Blondel Charles
Thank you! amazing and enlightening!
Paul Brodwin
Yes, thanks again for the great talk + discussion + thought-provoking karmic streams for the future.
christophe Millien
Thank you very much all
christophe Millien
sorry for all
Thank you !!
Eric Jacobson
Thanks Scott and Felicity for such very stimulating presentations,
Michael Nathan (He/him)
A different kind of biotechnical embrace!
Michael Nathan (He/him)
We need to be careful about the use of AI in this context. We're really speaking about the technical boundaries and facilitation of relationship. Our computer science colleagues would be careful to narrow the meaning of AI to the development of kinds of varyingly autonomous machines, which is quite different than using new technologies for communication and relationship. I'm very interested in the ways in which Covid has created both new forms of isolation and new forms of relationship and community. In the medical setting, I feel like it's more that the iPad stands in for human touch in a necessary and highly unsatisfactory way.
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Beyond Oncology and Stem Cell Tx —
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
AI plus IPAD
Michael Nathan (He/him)
More related to the current discussion, I think the separation of the ethical and the moral underlies the ways in which reflective practitioners consider their relationships and actions in the process of care. In real time, the moral is always present, but the ethical presents, in my experience, in a separate domain, usually between practitioners trying to process moral injury and contested domains.
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
iPad is like the spirit ambulance
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Of is it? Like the ambiane
Michael Nathan (He/him)
@MJD: That's very interesting! The technical conduit for the spirit!
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Excuse me a moment will return if not in time THANK YOU FOR TERRIFIC FMS discussion
Michael Nathan (He/him)
Do we conflate the irrational with the immaterial?
christophe Millien
thanks very much
Felicity Aulino
I have to go a meeting. THANK YOU all so much for this. And CONGRATULATIONS again, Scott, on your marvelous book. See you all soon!
Yidong Gong
Thank you for this wonderful talk Scott. I am looking forward to your visit to my med anthro class in April!
Michael Nathan (He/him)
Not sure why my headphones aren't working!
Lissie Wahl-
MJD: I agree with your idea of the iPad as the spirit ambulance. I will continue to observe with that in mind.
Michael Nathan (He/him)
I like that, too, Lissie. TO some extant, electronic communication has become the new sociality across so many domains!
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
Thanks Lizzie
Arlene Katz
thanks mary jo
Mary Jo DelVecchio Good
I watch little kids who live with us in Indonesia and how the iPad and the smart phones for these lower class 4 year olds has become a part of their selves and you see that with adults and older kids — how hard it is to get these items away from people — the irritation if it is wrenched away or if people are dissed for not being polite — the AI is what makes the smart phone soft ware that makes it addictive and little kids know how to use it often better than adults it is rather terrifying
Tony V Pham
I have to head out. thank you for the great talk!!
Ifrah Abdi
Thank you all
Michael Nathan (He/him)
Scott, what did families do to repay karmic debt prior to the advent of hi-tech care? That must have happened at home?
Lissie Wahl-
AB: it sounds like what a confession is supposed to do as well
Paul Brodwin
The official theodicies are never enough for people to make sense of their suffering. Therefore… roadside chapels, spirit ambulances, hand-crafted ethical strategies that are necessary because of the deficit of formal doctrine.
Melissa Chiovenda
Thank you very much everyone, great session. See you soon again. Ciao ciao
Lissie Wahl-
My 3 hours off at the hospital are up. Thank you again.
Paul Brodwin
Thanks again for a great morning! See you soon.